WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Good evening.
I'm William Brangham.
Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away.
On the "NewsHour" tonight: The Department of Justice and Google make closing arguments in a landmark trial that could change how we use the Internet.
Then: Trump White House Communications Director Hope Hicks takes the stand in the former president's hush money trial.
And on World Press Freedom Day, a Palestinian's journalist firsthand account of his family's fight to survive the war in Gaza.
DIANA ODEH, Daughter of Shams Odeh: We here in Gaza suffer that we need our children to have a better future.
We don't know if we are going to make it until the morning.
(BREAK) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Welcome to the "NewsHour."
There are signs tonight that high interest rates could finally be slowing U.S. job growth.
The Labor Department reports that employers added a net of 175,000 jobs in April.
That was well below expectations.
Meanwhile, the unemployment rate inched up 1/10th to 3.9 percent.
The Federal Reserve has said it needs to see a cooling of growth and inflation before it can cut interest rates.
A sitting member of Congress, Texas Democrat Henry Cuellar, and his wife were arrested today on federal charges of bribery and conspiracy.
They're accused of taking nearly $600,000 in bribes from a Mexican bank and an oil company controlled by Azerbaijan.
In return, Cuellar allegedly pushed legislation favorable to Azerbaijan.
The couple denies the charges.
In Canada, police have arrested three people in the murder of a Sikh separatist leader in British Columbia last June.
The three are Indian nationals.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had suggested that the Indian government was involved in the killing.
Today, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said they're looking at that possibility.
MANDEEP MOOKER, Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: This investigation does not end here.
We are aware that others may have played a role in this homicide, and we remain dedicated to finding and arresting each one of these individuals.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Indian government has denied any involvement in the murder.
College campuses across the country were somewhat quieter today after days of protests against the war in Gaza.
All told, more than 2,300 demonstrators have been arrested so far.
That includes at least a dozen early today at New York University.
After the raid, police stood guard as workers cleaned out the protesters' encampment.
A larger campsite had been cleared last month.
The protest movement has also spread to universities in the Middle East, Europe and beyond.
In Australia, pro-Palestinian protesters are camped at the University of Sydney.
Today, counterprotesters rallied with Israeli and Australian flags.
In Paris, French police moved in and cleared out students who had been occupying the prestigious Sciences Po university.
JACK (Student, Sciences Po): I'm here because the riot police removed me.
But I'm here because I want to show my solidarity with the Palestinian people and because I want this movement to spread to all the campuses.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Both the Australian and French protests were largely peaceful with no reports of arrests.
In Gaza, a Palestinian hospital reported at least seven people were killed in an overnight Israeli airstrike on Rafah.
Daylight revealed what was left of the home that bore the brunt of the attack near the Egyptian border.
Most of the dead were reported to be children.
Meantime, a group representing Israeli hostages confirmed that a 49-year-old man died during the Hamas attack on Israel in October, but that his body had not yet been returned.
Two rocket launches today highlighted trailblazing ventures into space.
China sent up a robotic craft to bring back samples from the far side of the moon.
The first-of-its-kind mission could take two months.
And, in Australia, a German company tested a rocket powered by paraffin, an ingredient in candle wax.
The firm says this fuel could cut satellite launch costs in half.
Back in this country, parts of Southeastern Texas have been inundated after nine inches of rain fell in just 24 hours.
Some highways and schools around Houston were closed.
A flood warning is in effect for a large area around the city.
The rain came on fast and strong, forcing some to abandon their cars.
Emergency crews had to carry out water rescues and officials warned of worse to come along the San Jacinto River.
JUDGE LINA HIDALGO, Harris County, Texas: It is not your typical river flood.
I know that folks who live along the river, they're river people, as we discussed when I was out there the other day.
They see this happen all the time.
This is not that.
This is not what happened in January.
This is much worse.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Forecasters predict the flooding will continue through the weekend.
The Biden administration will make federally subsidized health care available to migrants brought to the U.S. as children, the so-called dreamers.
Under a directive announced today, some 100,000 are expected to enroll for coverage under the Affordable Care Act next year.
Enrollment opens November 1.
And on Wall Street, stocks rose on hopes that slower job growth will prompt the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates.
The Dow Jones industrial average gained 450 points to close at 38675.
The Nasdaq rose 315 points, 2 percent.
The S&P 500 added 63.
Still to come on the "NewsHour": a look at the terrorist threat posed by a resurgent ISIS in Syria; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart weigh in on the week's headlines; and Vietnamese-Americans along the Gulf Coast share tributes to home and community.
One of former President Trump's most senior aides took the stand today during his hush money trial in New York.
Hope Hicks served as Mr. Trump's press secretary during the 2016 campaign and was his White House communications director.
On the stand, she detailed how Trump and his inner circle handled the revelations about alleged extramarital affairs and the payments made to bury those stories.
Andrea Bernstein is covering the former president's legal battles for NPR and was in the courthouse today, and she joins us now.
Andrea, so nice to see you again.
During the prosecution's questioning today, they delved into what happened in the campaign when that infamous "Access Hollywood" tape dropped.
What did we learn from Hope Hicks about that today?
ANDREA BERNSTEIN, NPR Contributor: Right.
So she was the person to first hear about that from The Washington Post, which asked her for a comment on the story they were about to run.
And she -- there was an e-mail shown that she had sent to campaign leadership where she had suggested, deny, deny, deny.
And as she read that on the stand, she sort of laughed, because she realized that they weren't going to be able to do that.
And she talked about how she went upstairs and there was a sort of a campaign brain trust preparing Trump for the debate.
She saw all of them, asked them what they were talking about, and when he learned about the tape, he said, "Well, that doesn't sound like something that I would say."
But, obviously, it was.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And that story is being told to jurors because it helps set the template for how the campaign then had to go into panic mode, and then Stormy Daniels' story becomes even more fraught for them.
What did we learn from her about that revelation?
ANDREA BERNSTEIN: Right.
So the campaign settles on saying that it was locker room talk.
And Trump actually apologized.
And there was a video played in the courtroom of him apologizing.
It was actually played twice today.
But over the next two weeks, the end of the campaign, all of these allegations come up, and then it's the Friday before the election.
And The Wall Street Journal sends Hope Hicks an e-mail about a story it's planning to run about this agreement we have been hearing so much with Karen McDougal and "The National Enquirer," the former Playboy model, to keep her story quiet.
And they also talk about Stormy Daniels.
And what is so interesting is that Hicks goes to three people involved, David Pecker, the former publisher of "The National Enquirer."
Trump, the candidate, and Michael Cohen, and they all essentially tell her there is nothing to the story.
And so she goes to The Wall Street Journal and she says to them, it is absolutely untrue, which, of course, is not the case, as jurors heard last week from David Pecker himself.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And what did she detail about Cohen's then subsequent negotiations with Stormy Daniels?
ANDREA BERNSTEIN: Well, she didn't know a lot about it, but there was very interesting testimony about how, when this story actually breaks, Trump is in the White House, and Michael Cohen -- The Wall Street Journal, the same reporters do another story.
It's now over a year later.
They detail everything regarding Stormy Daniels.
And Trump tells her that Michael Cohen did this on his own out of the goodness of his heart.
The prosecution asked, does that sound like the Michael Cohen you know?
And she basically said no.
She did not know him to be a charitable person.
And she sort of sniffed out the story, but she left the White House not long after, went to FOX News, before actually coming back to work in the White House for Trump in 2020.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And what did the -- what do Trump's legal team do?
How do they handle a witness like her?
Because this is someone who's very, very close to the former president.
ANDREA BERNSTEIN: Right.
Her testimony was clear.
She seemed to have very good recall about all kinds of events.
It was at the very beginning of her cross-examination, which was brief, in which the defense was trying to suggest that, well, it was her job to try to influence the media coverage.
That's what campaigns do, that Trump at the time was concerned about Melania.
She talked about Trump telling her to block newspaper delivery at the residence.
But at the very beginning of her testimony, when she was talking about her early work for the Trump Organization, she became overwhelmed.
She started to cry.
She had to take a break.
It just seemed a lot for this former aide, extremely loyal, to be testifying at the criminal trial of her former boss.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Andrea Bernstein of NPR, thank you so much, as always.
ANDREA BERNSTEIN: Thank you.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: A landmark antitrust trial between the Department of Justice and Google is coming to an end, with both parties delivering closing arguments.
As Stephanie Sy explains, Google is accused of monopolizing the Internet search market, sidelining competitors, and harming consumers.
STEPHANIE SY: William, the Justice Department claims that Google struck illegal deals with companies like Apple, paying them billions of dollars to be the default search engine on phones and other devices and crowding out competition.
Google argues it has the best search engine, and that's why consumers choose it.
The decision on this case may not only change the way Google does business.
It could lead to a breakup of the company.
For more, I'm joined by Rebecca Allensworth, who teaches contract and antitrust law at Vanderbilt Law School.
Rebecca, it's great to have you with us on the "NewsHour."
So, first, set the stage for us, because the Justice Department's under both former President Trump and now President Biden have been trying to rein in tech monopolies in various cases brought against these powerful companies.
But this was the first to go to trial last fall.
What was the most compelling testimony you heard on both sides of this?
REBECCA ALLENSWORTH, Vanderbilt Law School: Well, I think, on the side of the government, they really made a good case by pointing out Microsoft's difficulty in entering this market.
Microsoft wanted to make Bing something that was a real rival for Google, and they just could not get past these de facto exclusive deals that Google had with Apple and with Android.
I think that's really strong.
I think the best testimony on Google's side is the idea that Google's a great product.
We all sort of prefer it.
If we were given a choice, we would probably pick it.
And so what exactly does the government want here, a choice screen where we're all just going to click Google anyway?
Those, I think, are the strongest arguments that I heard on both sides.
STEPHANIE SY: And, of course, you had a big tech giant, Satya Nadella, testifying, as well as smaller search engine companies that say they're being crowded out.
So now you have closing arguments.
What has stood out to you about these last arguments and what the district judge in the case, Amit Mehta, has said?
REBECCA ALLENSWORTH: He seems skeptical of the idea that Google is not a monopolist.
They have to -- the government has to prove two things to prevail in this case.
First, they have to show that Google has monopoly power, and they have to show that they used bad acts or exclusionary conduct to maintain that power.
And I think that, as I -- my belief about the merits of this case is that Google is definitely a monopolist, and Mehta seemed to think that too.
He was very skeptical of arguments that Google was making that they compete with vertical search places like when you go to Amazon to search for a product or you go to Expedia to search for a travel opportunity.
He said those are not the same thing as general search.
So he's tipped his hand a little bit in that department.
He seemed a little bit more even in the way he was talking about the bad acts or the exclusionary behavior.
But he did say the big question, which is if defaults don't matter and if competition is just to click away, why are you, Google, paying Apple $23 billion a year to be that default?
STEPHANIE SY: And from what I understand, Google has like 90 percent of the search market as a result.
This case is considered a test case of whether U.S. antitrust law can adequately address the novel problems presented by new technologies.
How hard is it to win these types of antitrust cases and has the law evolved enough to deal with the rapid developments we have seen in tech?
REBECCA ALLENSWORTH: So these cases are very hard to win.
Antitrust law has itself evolved to be very unfriendly for plaintiffs, like -- including the government.
But I do think that antitrust law is up to this.
This is very analogous in some ways to the Microsoft case, which was the biggest tech monopolization case before this one from the late '90s.
And, actually, all along, since the passage of the Sherman Act, there have been networked industries, industries like the railroads, where you have to kind of treat the whole thing as a thing of value to consumers, that you want something big and networked, you don't want to break it up.
And so we have some good precedents and some good case law that would be applicable to this dispute.
But, like all antitrust cases, this one is hard to win.
STEPHANIE SY: This has been called the biggest antitrust case in the U.S. in a quarter-century.
But depending on how this judge rules, and that may take months, it may have no effect, right?
Or it could lead to major changes if he rules against Google, or it could just lead to the status quo.
REBECCA ALLENSWORTH: Well, I think it's unlikely to lead to a breakup.
I think that it's possible the government will ask for that, but I don't think they're likely to get it.
I think what they are likely to get if they win is a pronouncement that Google's no longer allowed to enjoy this default status on our devices.
The question then becomes, OK, so if there is a choice screen, will consumers really switch away?
Will competition be possible?
And while that seems hard to believe that even I personally would choose something other than Google, it does seem that Google is worried about that, to the tune of $23 billion a year in the case of Apple.
So it could really lead to some opening up of competition.
We will just have to see.
STEPHANIE SY: Rebecca Allensworth worth of Vanderbilt Law School, thanks so much for your expertise.
Thank you.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Today is World Press Freedom Day.
The Committee to Protect Journalists says some two dozen journalists have been killed so far this year, the vast majority of them dying in Gaza.
All told, at least 97 journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza, Israel, and Lebanon since the start of the war, making this by far the deadliest conflict for reporters in recent memory.
So we wanted to give you a look at the life of our own journalist in Gaza, cameraman and producer Shams Odeh.
He's been filming in Gaza since the October 7 terrorist attacks.
Here's Nick Schifrin.
NICK SCHIFRIN: Gaza today is defined by destruction, death and displacement.
And Gaza producer and cameraman Shams Odeh has documented and experienced all three.
SHAMS ODEH, Photographer and Producer: There is a lot of people killed here in this place in Rafah.
This is my tent, my bed, and my kitchen.
NICK SCHIFRIN: Today, this is his canvas home, where the war forced him and his family to flee in December.
They live underneath the constant sound of Israeli drones in Emirati tents, part of a tent city in Deir al Balah, one of tens of thousands of displaced families finding a way to live.
Four-year-old Kareem leads a gaggle of grandchildren.
The youngest, 1-year-old Rose, sleeps with a prized possession.
Their mother, Diana, is Shams' eldest child.
DIANA ODEH, Daughter of Shams Odeh: My message to the world is, we are humans.
We are not numbers.
We deserve to live a better life, such as any person in the world.
So we all here evacuated our homes.
NICK SCHIFRIN: In November, even after an initial displacement, they had a real roof over their heads near Nuseirat.
A madhouse of extended cousins lived in a house Shams built himself, with Benjamin Netanyahu's televised speeches and Diana Odeh's deferred dreams.
DIANA ODEH: We here in Gaza suffer, that we need our children to have a better future.
I want my kid Kareem to be a doctor in the future, but we don't know if we are going to make until the morning.
NICK SCHIFRIN: But the children now know things they should never have to know.
DIANA ODEH: My son Kareem even knows if this bomb - - if this bomb is dangerous or not.
He tells me: "Mom, it's far away.
It's far away.
It's not beside us."
NICK SCHIFRIN: But, one day, it was beside them, and Shams' house is now reduced to rubble, where grandkids once played, debris and devastation.
SHAMS ODEH: I choose to live here far away from troubles, far away from militant places.
I choose this place to live in peace, me and my kids.
NICK SCHIFRIN: This house was his life's work, his family's safe haven.
SHAMS ODEH: My dream was that everyone, Israelis, Palestinians live near each other with peace, with love.
And this bloody war must end, must end because of our kids and their kids, for a good future for them.
We must teach them how to love each other.
NICK SCHIFRIN: Love might feel lost in Khan Yunis, once home to half-a-million people, where today houses are flattened like pancakes and apartment blocks are cut into carcasses, including one more Odeh family home.
SHAMS ODEH: This is the last home that our - - my family owned in all of the Gaza Strip, after destroying my apartment in North Gaza, then my house in Nuseirat camp.
NICK SCHIFRIN: The Israeli military says it does not target journalists, and blames Hamas for the death of Gaza civilians.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, Israeli Prime Minister: Hamas places its weapons, it's terrorists in hospitals, schools, mosques and throughout civilian areas.
They do this in order to win immunity and to maximize civilian casualties.
NICK SCHIFRIN: As for Shams, he will keep working and trying to protect his family... SHAMS ODEH: They are refugee like me.
NICK SCHIFRIN: ... including the newest members.
But he couldn't protect everyone.
SHAMS ODEH: They were playing here, spend their life here.
NICK SCHIFRIN: Thirty-one of his extended family have been killed.
SHAMS ODEH: This is Shams Odeh.
Journalist Shams Odeh spend his life as a peaceful person.
But this is what happened to me.
Hardly, we can find food.
Hardly, we can have money.
But this will not stop our hope.
We love you all, and I will keep love you all.
NICK SCHIFRIN: For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Nick Schifrin.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It's been five years since the Islamic State, or ISIS, was defeated the U.S.-led military campaign in Syria.
But today, nearly 10,000 ISIS fighters remain jailed inside Syrian detention centers.
Human rights groups call conditions in the prisons abusive, and local authorities warn they are a breeding ground for radicalization and could help spark an ISIS revival.
Special correspondent Leila Molana-Allen traveled to Northeast Syria to meet high-security prisoners and the regional forces that are still battling ISIS.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: The horrors of ISIS, a threat long past, the world believed.
So, ISIS-K's devastating attack on Moscow came out of the blue.
But for the Middle Eastern governments and civilians who have been warning of the group's resurgence for many months now, it was all but inevitable.
Here in Northeast Syria, where thousands of ISIS fighters are locked up, unsentenced in crumbling jails, and tens of thousands more ISIS-linked families languish in displacement camps, the Syrian Democratic Forces have been begging their Western allies to address the growing threat.
SIAMAND ALI, Military Spokesperson, Syrian Democratic Forces (through translator): The international community thinks ISIS has been defeated and there is no risk for them.
This kind of thinking has given the chance for ISIS to reorganize themselves.
They rebuilt new groups and they began a new strategy to start again.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: The vast desert between Hasakah and Deir ez-Zor, the Badiya, is one of Syria's most deadly areas.
ISIS controlled this territory for several years.
The rugged, open terrain here makes it easy for militants to conceal weapons and fighters, harass local farmers for money and plan operations.
We're on a patrol with the SDF through the lawless desert area leading up to the Iraqi border.
There are many villages here where people still support ISIS and some of them hide sleep cells.
Whenever there's an alert, the commandos get out to investigate and speak to villagers.
Some support ISIS.
Many others are terrorized by them.
They're trying to catch security threats and eliminate them before they can carry out an attack and to remind everyone who's in charge here.
Commander Zinar knows the danger.
He was permanently maimed in a 2016 ISIS explosion.
COMMANDER ZINAR, Special Forces, Syrian Democratic Forces (through translator): Our goal is to track down ISIS sleeper cells who are attacking and carrying out suicide bombings.
We have done a lot of military operations in this area, but, still, they're reorganizing themselves.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: With so much ground to cover and such a high threat level, more and more militants are slipping through the net.
The huge ISIS prison break two years ago was staged from these sprawling sands.
Dozens of sleeper cells attacked using suicide bombs and armed trucks; 1,000 prisoners escaped.
Over 100 were never recaptured, and 120 SDF officers and local civilians were killed.
The attack ended after 10 days only thanks to coalition airstrikes.
Local authorities warned they couldn't defeat another escape attempt alone if U.S. forces leave Syria.
Nureddine Berham is a high security prisoner at Al Sina'a.
We were given rare access to speak with him before the Moscow attack.
A militant jihadist to his core, he's been joining up with Islamist militias to fight Western ideology since he traveled to Pakistan to support Osama bin Laden in the '90s.
Originally Jordanian, the rest of his family are American citizens, and he claims he traveled to the U.S. regularly on visas until the mid-2000s.
In Syria, he signed up with ISIS as a suicide bomber, but was captured.
NUREDDINE BERHAM, Imprisoned ISIS Fighter (through translator): I was waiting for my turn, and eagerly.
So it didn't happen.
Most of the brothers, if you were outside of this prison, I'm not going to tell that I'm -- if I'm able to make every -- every minute, a martyrdom operation, I will do it every second.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: Berham was at the forefront of the prison break, handing weapons to other inmates.
He says the prisoners managed to smuggle in weapons and mobile phones to receive instructions from the attackers outside.
NUREDDINE BERHAM: The plan was, when we hear the bomb, when we hear the explosion, we have to break the walls and just break out.
In like 15 or 20 minutes, we were taking control of the whole prison.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: Authorities here wouldn't let us see inside the cells.
Berham says the prisoners live in horrendous conditions, often more than 20 to a cell, and with many suffering from fungal infections and tuberculosis.
But that lack of oversight also allows them to continue their radicalization, operating a mini-Dawlat, Islamic State, unimpeded.
NUREDDINE BERHAM: And inside the prison, we were still Dawlat.
We were still implementing Sharia.
We would rather die than to live this kind of life.
We're fighters.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: Berham says they will keep trying to break out until they succeed.
You have just told me you want to blow yourself up at any opportunity.
You want any opportunity to fight America, to fight this government.
How and why could you possibly be released?
NUREDDINE BERHAM: It doesn't matter how long we stay in prison.
We're not going to change it.
This is the 11th time I be in prison.
And every time, I go back, and, every time, I go back to fighting.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: The prison was destroyed and the prisoners are now housed in a new facility.
But the attack showed that keeping so many dangerous militants in these conditions with limited security forces is unsustainable.
There are thousands of ISIS-linked prisoners being held here in a city of fewer than 450,000 people.
Many of those jails are in residential areas.
The one just behind me, which holds some of the most dangerous captured ISIS fighters, is just meters from a busy shopping street and children playing in front of their homes.
Mohammad lives on this street.
He knows just how real that threat is.
His young family was at home when the shooting began, then banging on the front door.
MOHAMMAD, Hasakah, Syria, Resident (through translator): One of them was pointing a gun.
The others walked in.
They were all dressed in prison uniforms.
Then the clashes, shelling and shooting started.
They killed my cousin.
They shot him in his head here, and it came out from the other side.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: Escaped fighters occupied homes, taking residents hostage, as grenades rained down over the narrow streets, beheading several residents who didn't obey them.
Mohammad's 5-year-old son, Adam, hasn't slept through the night since.
MOHAMMAD (through translator): My son calls, "Dad, it's ISIS" in his sleep.
"Daddy, will ISIS escape?
Will they come again?"
What have these children done to live this horror?
God forbid if they flee the prison again.
What will happen to people?
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: The Syrian Democratic Forces estimate there are at least 10,000 ISIS fighters still active in the area, and that number is growing.
Now, in a speech posted online, ISIS leaders have called on their supporters to plan fresh attacks on cities around the globe.
Former U.S. Army Colonel Myles Caggins was the coalition spokesman in Iraq and Syria at the height of the battle to defeat ISIS.
For him, Northeast Syria's overflowing jails are a ticking time bomb.
COL. MYLES CAGGINS (RET.
), U.S. Army: The world doesn't really want to deal with these 10,000 detainees.
President Biden and his administration have followed the policy of the previous administration, where nobody really wants to talk much about Syria.
The American public, in particular, does not hear much about ISIS until there's something like a massive attack that happened in Russia.
It is important, though, for the world to pay attention to ISIS.
There are wealthy individuals who support ISIS' ideology.
The scale and type of attacks that they conduct do not require a lot of money, but they're able to get a large effect out of them by having these attacks in highly visible places and recording the attacks and sharing it as propaganda, propaganda that is desired -- designed to inspire other members of ISIS.
It's designed to inspire potential recruits.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: Officials here are threatening to carry out their own trials if an international tribunal isn't established, but, in, reality courts here don't have the jurisdiction to try many of these prisoners.
With foreign nations refusing to take back their citizens, fighters sit in wait, plotting their escape and the group's return to power.
NUREDDINE BERHAM: We have to fight to the last drop of our blood.
We are more insisting now to fight you, America, and all that is fighting with you (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) until it's either us or you guys.
LEILA MOLANA-ALLEN: For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Leila Molana-Allen in Al Sina'a prison, Northeast Syria.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As protests against the war in Gaza grew on college campuses this week, we also got the clearest vision yet for what former President Trump might do with a second term.
That brings us to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.
That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.
Gentlemen, so good to have you both here, David joining us from Chicago.
Sorry to see you stuck in a television set over there.
(LAUGHTER) WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Jonathan, to you first.
On these protests that we saw growing across college campuses around the country, calls for divestment, some clashes, police being sent in some cases.
What do you make of this growing protest movement?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, one, what we're seeing is the passion of the students and the passion of the community around these universities over the issue of what's happening in Gaza.
Remember, these protests started happening because of the humanitarian crisis there in Gaza.
My big question is, will these demonstrations and these protests continue after graduation and after school is out?
What I'm looking at is, colleges are convening spaces.
But what happens when you lose your convening space?
Will these demonstrations happen once all the students go back home?
That's the one thing that I'm wondering.
Also, we have seen a proliferation of these demonstrations in the last week.
And I wonder if it's because a lot of the students, a lot of the demonstrators in campuses who haven't been -- haven't gone on record, they're going on record to show, no, we have something to say about this, we're taking a stand.
And so maybe by this time next week or in a couple of weeks, I wonder if we're going to see the same level of intensity among young people on this issue.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David, we saw that President Biden was asked about whether these protests and the message of those protests was going to change his views on policy vis-a-vis Israel and Gaza.
He said that it wasn't.
We have also seen this bipartisan passage of a law -- of a bill clarifying what is antisemitism formally, I guess, so that schools that don't punish it overtly could be punished themselves.
Do you think that there will be continued political reverberations from these protests?
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I think big time.
In the 1960s, Ronald Reagan ran for governor running against the Berkeley protests.
Richard Nixon ran for president running against the protests.
It's not so much the message of the protests.
It's the violence that surrounds them.
I'm teaching at the University of Chicago this term.
And a couple hundred yards from here, the encampment at our school is there.
And the university had a very clear policy.
We celebrate your right to express your point of view, but we don't allow you to make the campus violent.
We're not going to let you disrupt campus.
We're not going to allow you to disrupt learning.
And, today the president, Paul Alivisatos, sent out an e-mail to everybody in the community saying, we celebrate the right to make your statements.
Unfortunately, the students have been disruptive.
They have torn down Israeli signs.
They have silenced speakers.
They have made the campus -- they have interfered with learning in the campus.
And so he sent out a somewhat ominous e-mail.
And I have to say, things are pretty tame here compared to a lot of the other places.
So what Americans support is free speech.
What they don't support is what looks like anarchy.
And so I think if the protests continue to veer in the direction they're veering, you could see some pretty serious repercussions, which is why Biden is speaking, which is why Chuck Schumer is speaking, trying to distance themselves from what the protesters are doing.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, Jonathan, a lot of the critics of these protests like to say that it's all antisemitism, just a hot stew of anti-Israeli bias.
I was at one of the NYU protests earlier this week, and there is some of that, for sure.
But it's mostly young people, as you were describing, who are despairing over what is happening in Gaza.
How is it that people who care deeply about this issue can't -- can somehow protest and not be risked being branded as antisemites?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: OK, what -- excuse me.
So, there's antisemitism, but then you anti -- you said anti-Israeli.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I'm even conflating it myself here.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Exactly.
And that is the issue.
It is possible to criticize the government of Israel, the state of Israel, the prime minister of Israel, the policies, what he says, his actions, without veering into ugly antisemitism.
If you don't like what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is doing in Gaza, not allowing enough humanitarian aid to go through, that is a legitimate criticism.
But to then go into all the ugliness, some of the ugliness that we have heard, that's not OK.
I don't understand how -- why it's so hard to state your objections without being bigoted about it.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I'd like to pivot a little bit.
David, this week "TIME" magazine published this really remarkable story about Donald Trump.
It was called "If He Wins."
And it was based on two interviews with Trump and a series of interviews with his associates.
And it lays out a series of ideas that Trump wants to enact or would consider enacting in his second term.
I'm just going to put up a list of some of the things here.
It involves monitoring women's pregnancies, perhaps deploying the U.S. military inside the United States to round up migrants, building large migrant detention camps, firing U.S. attorneys who don't prosecute cases at Trump's direction.
Now, I know some of these things we have heard from Donald Trump before, but I wonder what -- when you see them all together like that, what do you make of this, this portrait of a possible second Trump administration?
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I'm reminded the first Trump administration when you couldn't believe your mind could get more mind-boggled than it already was by what he was doing.
This was a truly mind-boggling interview.
The Republican Party used to be a party that was -- wanted to restrict the power of the state, and this is a radical desire to expand the power of the presidency.
And the idea that we're going to have National Guard rounding up immigrant families that have been here for years and years and deporting them, those images will get ugly.
The idea of President Trump sort of saying, you're going to prosecute this, it's unprecedented.
So it was just one mind-boggling thing after another, gutting the Treasury Department, gutting the Justice Department.
And, really, it was Trump sort of giving himself permission to be completely unleashed.
And we forget that he was a little surrounded by mature Republicans in the first term, and now he's saying, no more of that.
I'm going to be -- I'm going to do what I want.
And, this time, if reelected, he will have a cadre of Trumpians, which he did not have in 2017.
And so it was really a display of radical authoritarianism, which he's proud of.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How did you see it?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: In the run-up to this "TIME" magazine interview, we had been hearing from him on some of these things on the campaign trail.
But, before, we have been hearing from senior advisers and supporters of his, say, at Project 2025, going on the record, talking... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This is the Heritage Foundation... JONATHAN CAPEHART: The Heritage Foundation.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: ... document for how a second Trump admin might unfold.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.
And they're pulling in all these resumes and the types of people who they would have at the ready as a turnkey operation for the next Republican president, who they think will be Donald Trump.
Those were the people who were talking about this.
What was interesting about the "TIME" magazine interview and also his interview with The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is, Trump is the one who was going on the record in an interview with a reporter saying, yes, I'm going to use the National Guard.
I'm going to deploy them to American cities.
Yes, we're going to round up millions of undocumented immigrants -- migrants and put them in prisons on the border.
Yes, we're going to do all of these things.
And what was most chilling to me, well, among many things in the "TIME" magazine interview, was that I had always known about Project 2025.
I have talked about it many times on my show on MSNBC.
What I did not know was that Project 2025 is one of four groups out there right now that are who are planning for a Trump 2.0 administration, taking on various aspects, so that, if he does indeed win election in November at, maybe by 1:00 p.m. on January 20, 2025, he will be able to get a whole lot of things done, because they will have figured out where the guardrails are, how to remove them, how to remove the people who be -- who would stand in the way of things that they want to do.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David, in that "TIME" magazine piece, specifically talking about this upending of the Department of Justice that you were talking about, the reporter quoted one judge, saying, look, those guardrails that we're talking about, those are still there.
If he tried to fire U.S. attorneys that didn't heed his calls to prosecute his political enemies, there would be a public uproar, there would be quitting, there would be a revolt, basically.
Do you believe that that's true?
Do you believe those guardrails are there and are strong enough?
DAVID BROOKS: I have some doubt.
I think there would be a lot of quitting.
I think there are a lot of people of integrity who would not tolerate this.
But the sad fact is, and if you look at the polling -- and this goes back a long way in American history -- there's a lot more desire for -- authoritarianism may be a strong word, but somebody is willing to break the rules to get things done.
And so you go back to the 1930s, there were strong calls for Franklin Delano Roosevelt to make himself a dictator.
Fortunately, Roosevelt was a solid Democrat, so he wasn't going to do that.
But if you look at public opinion, there has always been a constituency: This is an extremely messed up country.
We need some guy to take control.
And if he has to break a few eggs along the way, let him do it.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, always good to see you both.
Thank you so much.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, William.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The two million Vietnamese-Americans in this country often find their stories are still told through the lens of the Vietnam War, which ended almost 50 years ago.
But as I learned on a recent trip to the Gulf Coast, a new generation is trying to tell a different story about their lives today.
It's part of our arts and culture series, Canvas.
For artist Christian Dinh, almost everything he makes contains a tribute to home and community.
At the Ohr-O'Keefe Museum of Art of art in Biloxi, Mississippi, Dinh's memories of growing up in a large Vietnamese-American family are embedded in his ceramic work, like this porcelain vase, where he inscribed his grandmother's recipe for steamed fish.
CHRISTIAN DINH, Ceramic Artist: My favorite out of the directions is towards the end, when she explains: "You will know when the fish is ready when the eyeballs turn white."
And I remember her telling me that, and I was just like, what does that mean?
Can't she give me a temperature or something else?
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Or this enormous rice bowl, a giant replica of the small plastic longevity bowls that are ubiquitous on family tables.
CHRISTIAN DINH: These -- in a way, these plastic wares are the fine china of Asian American culture.
So I wanted to emphasize that, one, by its size, right, just making it a more monumental piece, scaling it up, two, by changing it back into its original material, which is ceramics.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In another series, Dinh reimagines the white display hands that are typically seen in Vietnamese-American nail salons.
He casts them in porcelain, an homage to his people's success in that industry.
CHRISTIAN DINH: The nail salon series was a project that I started in 2020, really around the height of the Asian hate crimes.
I knew that I wanted to make this body of work to counteract a lot of the negative energy and the stereotypes and stigmatization that was going on.
Over the past five decades now, they have really turned that industry into a multibillion-dollar industry.
Besides kind of like the monetary figures, I kind of see it as this beacon of success that trickles down to the entire Vietnamese-American community that can be celebrated.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And the writings and the symbols that we see on there, what are those?
CHRISTIAN DINH: On each set of hands are my different ideas of success within the community.
It can be as simple as having a meal with your family, so sharing food, cooking, setting the table.
Ultimately, that's what I'm getting at with the work, is that, though I'm coming from my own background, my own experience of Vietnamese culture, it's not too different from any other cultures.
And I always look at the work as not necessarily being Vietnamese or Asian, but it's American work just as much.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As the child of immigrants raised in the U.S., Dinh want it to expand what it means to be Vietnamese-American today.
CHRISTIAN DINH: When you hear stories about the Vietnamese community, it usually revolved around the war.
And that's kind of where it ends.
The war doesn't define these people.
It is very important for them in their lives and what they have experienced, but they have also experienced a whole new life and established a whole new community here in the United States.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: About an hour-and-a-half west from Biloxi, many forged that community here in New Orleans.
The city's Village de L'Est neighborhood has been home to several thousand Vietnamese-Americans, including Cyndi Nguyen.
CYNDI NGUYEN, New Orleans Resident: People came down to New Orleans because of the weather, because of the possibility of working immediately because of the Gulf.
Many Vietnamese immigrants were fishermen by trade.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Nguyen and her family came to New Orleans as part of that wave of refugees fleeing the chaos after the fall of Saigon in 1975.
She too planted roots in America, becoming the first Asian American to serve on the New Orleans City Council.
CYNDI NGUYEN: My father say would: "Well, we're going to New Orleans."
I would say: "How -- where is New Orleans?"
"Well, that's where all the Vietnamese people are going to."
"Well, how did you know this?"
"Well, we just got word."
So we moved to New Orleans, where we saw people that looks like us.
It was definitely comforting, especially in a new country, right?
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But just 30 years later, many of those immigrants had to flee their homes again when Hurricane Katrina drove them away.
CYNDI NGUYEN: We had a lot of conversation with many of our residents.
And they said, well -- when Katrina here, it was just kind of like, where am I going to go?
This is only home I know.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But in a show of resilience, Nguyen says her community was one of the first to return and among the fastest to rebuild.
Five years later, though, another blow.
The BP oil spill devastated the Gulf's fishing industry and the livelihoods of many Vietnamese-American shrimpers.
But again, Nguyen says, there was rebirth, a shift to farming in community-owned cooperatives like this.
DYLAN TRAN, Composer: It's something to do with resilience and community.
It's something to do with family.
It's something to do with love.
Those are the big things.
I happen to tell them through a Vietnamese-American lens, but they're themes that we all relate to in some kind of way.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Vietnamese-American composer Dylan Tran's first instrument was an old hand-me-down guitar passed from older brothers.
But it was working in his father's laundromat where he was first inspired to weave his family's heritage into his own work.
DYLAN TRAN: It was a couple years after my dad had passed.
And I was working at the laundromat that he owned, sitting in his office, smelling his smell.
And while I was in there, I would be listening to classical traditional court Vietnamese music.
And I had my manuscript paper.
And in between mopping the floor and cleaning out the dryers and everything, I would go to the office and just transcribe.
And I would write down everything I was hearing and try to get it as close as I -- as I possibly could.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Those ideas were central to his string quartet composition called "No.
1 on Viet Themes."
It became the score for the documentary "Uncle at Sea" about the struggles of a Gulf Coast Vietnamese-American fisherman.
And it was later performed at the Ogden Museum of Southern Art in New Orleans.
DYLAN TRAN: I cried countless times throughout it and afterwards thinking about it, because the response from the Vietnamese community was -- it just felt so huge, people who just heard about it on the street or saw a poster in a cafe and were just excited to see a part of their culture presented and elevated in this way.
When I write music that is influenced by my Vietnameseness, it's to express myself and it's to connect with other people who share that.
And anyone is welcome to come and enjoy that.
But it's something that I do for us.
It's something I do for us, you know?
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And while this younger generation innovates, the timeless theme of resilience is threaded through their work.
This afternoon, President Biden bestowed the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Today's 19 different recipients hail from nearly all corners of American life, from actors to astronauts to activists, like Opal Lee, known as the grandmother of Juneteenth, and to athletes like Katie Ledecky, the most decorated female swimmer of all time.
At the White House, Mr. Biden called them all the pinnacle of leadership in their fields.
JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: Sixty-one years ago, President Kennedy established the Presidential Medal of Freedom to recognize -- quote -- "any person who has made an especially meritorious contribution to the security of national interest -- and national interest of United States or world peace, cultural or other significant public or private endeavors."
Today, we have another extraordinary honor to bestow on the nation's highest civilian honors of 19 incredible people whose relentless curiosity, inventiveness, ingenuity and hope have kept faith in a better tomorrow.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Honorees also included a large number of high-profile politicians, South Carolina Congressman Jim Clyburn, former Senator Elizabeth Dole, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, among others.
Biden also honored former Vice President Al Gore, applauding his work on climate change and his handling of a controversial presidential election.
JOE BIDEN: After winning the popular vote, he accepted the outcome of a disputed presidential election for the sake of unity and trust in our institutions.
That, to me, was amazing, what you did, Al.
I mean, I won't go into that, but... JOE BIDEN: History is going to remember you for many reasons.
Among them will be your honesty, your integrity, and the legacy of your service.
So, thank you, Al.
You're first-rate.
Thank you.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Three medals were given posthumously to civil rights leader Medgar Evers, who fought segregation in Mississippi in the 1960s, to Frank Lautenberg, who was New Jersey's longest-serving senator, and to Jim Thorpe, a multisport phenom and the first Native American to win an Olympic gold medal.
This week, our digital show dives into the war in Gaza and how the ongoing conflict is playing out in the U.S., as protests have grown across college campuses.
You can find that on our YouTube channel.
And be sure to tune into "Washington Week With The Atlantic" tonight, where Jeffrey Goldberg and his panel examine President Biden's efforts to navigate the fallout of the Israel-Hamas war.
And on "PBS News Weekend": what the pullout of American troops from Chad and Niger could mean for security in the African region.
And before we go, we want to say goodbye to a dear colleague who is leaving us today.
Alexis Cox has been with the "NewsHour" for 24 years.
She started as production assistant and, with her sharp writing and gentle, unflappable spirit, soon became an essential part of our newsroom.
She has helped shape our coverage of a quarter-century of breaking news.
She has been a mentor to many, a friend to all, and always a first-rate journalist.
Alexis, on behalf of all of us at the "NewsHour," thank you.
We will miss you enormously.
And that is the "NewsHour" for tonight.
I'm William Brangham.
Thank you so much for joining us.